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The "REAL" Nano Problem

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Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:25:00 - [1] Originally by: Derrys Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:05:13 Originally by: Corstaad Your overveiw looks like that because a roving gang is fun. Lets nerf fun and be done with it. The fact that there's only a couple viable types of roving gang is strong evidence of the problem I'm talking about. If the only way to have fun is to fly a Vagabond, Ishtar, or Rapier, then don't you agree there's something wrong with the rest of the ships? Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:32:00 - [2] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships. Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed. What?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:53:00 - [3] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild Why should anything but fast ships be viable for roaming gangs? The whole concept of small raiding forces implies fast ships (or stealthy cloakers), not big honking battleships. Fast in EVE with WTZ refers to align speed, not orbit speed. What? A raiding gang in eve needs to move across systems quickly, hence a "roaming gang". They don't need to reach top speeds of 5000+m/s to do this, they just need to align quickly. Thus a gang of non-nanoed HACs would still meet the concept of "small raiding forces" that you claim is only validated by nanogangs. Need more explanation of a simple concept, or are you just feigning ignorance? They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered. That implies speed, both tactical (moving fast in space) and operational (moving quickly from system to system), or stealth (cloaking).
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 19:57:00 - [4] Originally by: Derrys Edited by: Derrys on 02/04/2008 19:53:53 Originally by: Corstaad You have to fit and play for how you think your going to fight. Sure, and my problem is that "how you think you're going to fight" these days is always "I bet I'm going to run across a bunch of Vagabonds, Ishtars, and/or Rapiers." There should be more than one or two ways to play the game. Right now, it's becoming more and more "nanos," "anti-nanos," and "other" (which will be either dispatched or ignored by the nanos.) How many fast ships do you see in the average large alliance fleet? And how many battleships and capitals?
Reem Fairchild	Posted - 2008.04.02 20:33:00 - [5] Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered. Raid means "a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force." Thus the ability to ambush an enemy. This says nothing about being survivable and being able to run away. By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat. It implies both. Stop being daft. Thinking that roaming gangs in battleships should be viable is like wanting to take an Abrams tank on a commando raid. In large fleets, slow bulky battleships and capitals reign supreme. What's wrong with ships like heavy assault ships, recons, interdictors and interceptors taking the front seat when it comes to small scale roaming gang type combat? Why would you want it to be any other way?
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 21:24:00 - [6] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Corwain Originally by: Reem Fairchild They need to be survivable and be able to get out of trouble if they are outnumbered. Raid means "a sudden attack on the enemy, as by air or by a small land force." Thus the ability to ambush an enemy. This says nothing about being survivable and being able to run away. By definition a raiding party is a mobile group that can launch a surprise attack, not a surprise retreat. It implies both. Stop being daft. Thinking that roaming gangs in battleships should be viable is like wanting to take an Abrams tank on a commando raid. In large fleets, slow bulky battleships and capitals reign supreme. What's wrong with ships like heavy assault ships, recons, interdictors and interceptors taking the front seat when it comes to small scale roaming gang type combat? Why would you want it to be any other way? In large fleets, battleships form the main fleet, flanked by all sorts of specialized support. All sorts of recons, frigates, cruisers, and hacs perform a role with interdictors and hactors forming the basis of your support. Only when it becomes "olol caps online" are there problems with ships being obsoleted and that is more due to the crippling lag that large numbers of carriers produce. Yeah thanks, I've been the support in those fleets enough times. We're still only talking 20-30% of the total fleet and they are simply that - support. They help the main body of the fleet do its job. Capitals and battleships reign supreme in those battles. And it makes perfect sense. But it also makes perfect sense that small scale combat be done by lighter ships who can use speed or cloaking to dodge dangers and survive where a heavier force would be pinned down and destroyed in short order.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 21:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Is there some reason all my training for Amarr pretty much goes right out the window? Curse? Sacriledge? Zealot? Absolution? All can be fitted for speed. The first two are among the ships that people whine about the most when it comes to fast ships. The Caldari are the only ones that are really lacking when it comes to fast heavy assault or command ships. I think the Cerberus is pretty much it, and it's not as good as the Sacriledge.
Reem Fairchild Shadow Forces Inc.	Posted - 2008.04.02 22:37:00 - [8] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h All fine ships although a fast Abso? It's base speed is 150 m/s (same as a Typhoon battleship I might add) and is around 30% more massive. It's done. It's the weapon system that makes it a good "nano-ship" candidate. It's not all about pure speed when it comes to this type of ships. It's like how the Ishtar is slower, heavier and has less low slots than the Deimos, yet the Ishtar is the one that people tend to speed fit because of its weapon system. Quote: Actually none of them approach a Vaga in speed, not one can catch it and I seriously doubt one could get tracking on a Vaga to shoot it not to mention issues with MWD and Amarr ships and lasers and cap. Ok, I keep seeing this about the tracking, so let's illustrate how wrong you are with an example. I'm using stats from EFT and feeding them into the tracking guide on this site. Assume a Harbinger with tech 2 medium beam lasers (and a pilot with average skills) using Standard crystals. No tracking mods or target painters or whatever. It's being orbited by a 6 km/s Vagabond at 20 km range. The Harbinger will hit with almost 50% accuracy. Get a few tracking mods and a target painter on there, and we're talking 70-80% accuracy. Now, imagine a Zealot which has enough range with Pulses (that have much better tracking and higher damage than beams) and can be fitted for speed so it can keep its tranversal down.... Quote: A Curse is dangerous enough to a Vaga to make the Vaga pilot stay away but a Curse would never kill a Vaga unless the Vaga pilot screws-up badly. The reverse is also true though.

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